No KYC Casinos: The Math, the Rules and the Reality for UK Players

A no KYC casino lets you register, deposit and withdraw without uploading a passport, a utility bill or a selfie holding your driving licence. That is the entire pitch. No verification queue, no waiting 48 hours for a compliance team to squint at a blurry gas bill, no account frozen because the address on your bank statement says "Flat 3B" and the one on your ID says "3B Flat".

Sounds clean. It rarely is. The UK Gambling Commission does not license a single operator that skips identity checks, which means every "no KYC casino" serving British players is either an offshore entity with a Curaçao or Anjouan licence, or a crypto-only platform operating outside the regulated perimeter entirely. Neither is illegal to play at. Both carry trade-offs that most comparison sites gloss over.

This page does the opposite. We run the expected value numbers, compare published RTPs between licensed and unlicensed rooms, and explain what you actually give up when you trade a passport scan for anonymity. Some of the figures are uncomfortable. The UKGC requires identity verification before a first withdrawal and, for most operators, before a first deposit above £0 — that is the baseline every regulated brand works from.

What "No KYC" Actually Means in 2026

KYC stands for Know Your Customer. In the UK it is not a marketing choice, it is a licence condition. Under the Gambling Commission's 2019 enforcement update, operators must verify name, address and date of birth before a customer can deposit or gamble, with a narrow window for verification during play. Since May 2025, the Commission has also required light-touch financial risk checks at £150 net monthly loss and full checks at £500, thresholds that rise with income banding.

So when a site advertises "no KYC", it means one of three things. Either it is offshore and simply not bound by UKGC rules, or it is a crypto casino where the wallet address doubles as identity, or it is a regulated brand using the phrase loosely to mean "no documents at signup" while still verifying you at cashout. The third is the most common and the most misleading.

There is a fourth category worth flagging: white-label crypto rooms running on a shared licence from Curaçao, Anjouan or Costa Rica. These accept UK players, process in Bitcoin or USDT, and genuinely do not ask for a passport. They also do not report to HMRC, do not contribute to GamCare, and cannot be escalated to an Alternative Dispute Resolution service if a withdrawal goes sideways.

Why do UK-licensed casinos all require ID?

Because the licence says so. The Gambling Commission's Licence Conditions and Codes of Practice set verification as a condition of operating, not a customer service preference. A UK-licensed operator that lets you deposit and withdraw £2,000 without ever confirming your age would face a licence review, and the Commission has suspended or revoked licences for exactly this failure. It is not the casino being difficult. It is the casino staying legal.

Are no KYC casinos legal to use from the UK?

Playing at an offshore site is not a criminal offence for the individual punter. The offence sits with the operator if it advertises or transacts in Britain without a licence. That distinction matters: you will not be prosecuted for logging into a Curaçao-licensed room, but you also have zero recourse under UK law if that room keeps your £800 withdrawal and stops answering emails.

What documents do regulated UK casinos ask for?

Typically three things: photographic ID (passport or driving licence), proof of address dated within the last three months (bank statement, utility bill, council tax letter), and occasionally proof of funds or source of wealth for larger deposits. Some brands now run electronic verification through credit reference agencies, which clears roughly 70–80% of customers without a single upload. If you fail the electronic check, you upload.

The RTP Math: Licensed vs Offshore Rooms

Return to player is the single most useful number in this whole debate, and almost nobody compares it properly. RTP is the theoretical percentage of all staked money returned to players over millions of spins. A 96% slot returns £96 for every £100 wagered, on average, across an infinite sample. Your session of 300 spins is noise. The house edge is the mirror image: 4% on a 96% game, 2.7% on a 97.3% game.

Here is where the offshore pitch falls apart. Regulated UK operators publish game RTPs because the licence requires transparency, and the big suppliers — NetEnt, Pragmatic Play, Microgaming, Play'n GO, Evolution — ship UK-facing versions at the top of their RTP range. Unlicensed rooms frequently run the same titles at the bottom of the range, because the supplier offers multiple RTP configurations and the operator picks.

A concrete example. Book of Dead ships in several versions. The 96.21% build is standard for UK-licensed casinos. Lower configurations exist at roughly 94.25% and 91.25% for other markets. Same artwork, same bonus round, same "Book of Dead" logo. The difference across 10,000 spins at £1 stake is £196 in expected loss between the top and bottom build. That is not a rounding error.

GameTop RTP buildLow RTP buildEdge at topEdge at low
Book of Dead (Play'n GO)96.21%91.25%3.79%8.75%
Starburst (NetEnt)96.09%94.05%3.91%5.95%
Gonzo's Quest (NetEnt)95.97%94.00%4.03%6.00%
Big Bass Bonanza (Pragmatic)96.71%94.50%3.29%5.50%
Lightning Roulette (Evolution)97.30%97.10%2.70%2.90%
European Roulette (table)97.30%94.74% (US)2.70%5.26%

Run the expected value on a £500 bankroll at 200 spins of £1. At 96.21% RTP the expected loss is £7.58. At 91.25% it is £17.50. Over a year of twice-weekly sessions that gap compounds into real money, and it is invisible on the game screen because both versions look identical.

Live dealer tables are the outlier. Evolution's Lightning Roulette sits at 97.30% and does not vary meaningfully between licensed and offshore rooms, because the studio streams one feed and the operator cannot re-skin the maths. If you want the smallest house edge available, live European roulette at 97.30% beats every slot on the market.

How much does a 3% RTP gap cost over a year?

Assume 250 sessions a year at £1 average stake over 200 spins each, so £50,000 total wagered. At 96% RTP your expected loss is £2,000. At 93% it is £3,500. That £1,500 difference is the price of a lower RTP build, and it is roughly what a mid-range holiday costs. Nobody advertises this. The game lobby just shows pretty graphics.

Do offshore casinos really run lower RTP versions?

Often, yes, though not universally. Suppliers offer operator-selectable RTPs and offshore rooms have no regulator forcing them to publish which build they run. Some crypto casinos do disclose it, and a handful run top-range builds to compete. The problem is verification: without a licence, there is no authority auditing the claim. You are trusting a screenshot.

What RTP should I look for as a minimum?

For slots, treat 96% as the floor and 96.5%+ as good. Live blackjack with basic strategy sits around 99.5%, live baccarat banker bets around 98.94%, and European roulette 97.30%. Anything advertised below 95% on a slot is a deliberate margin grab. Check the paytable or the game's info screen — the RTP is listed there on every licensed build.

The Traffic-Rules Analogy: What You Give Up Without KYC

Think of a gambling licence like a driving licence. A regulated UK casino is a driver who passed the test, drives an MOT'd car, carries insurance and gets pulled over if they speed. An offshore no KYC room is someone driving on a private track. Nobody is going to arrest you for being a passenger, and the track might genuinely be faster. But if the car crashes, there is no insurer, no police report and no claims process.

That analogy holds up on every restriction. Regulated operators face speed limits: deposit caps, stake limits on online slots (currently £5 per spin for 18–24 year olds and £15 for 25+, following the September 2024 changes), mandatory cool-off tools and a statutory right to complain to an ADR provider. Offshore rooms face none of these. The absence of limits is not automatically bad — plenty of experienced players find £5 spin caps irritating — but it is a trade, not a free lunch.

The withdrawal side is where the analogy bites hardest. A UKGC operator must process your withdrawal within a defined window and hold your funds in segregated accounts. At an offshore crypto room, your balance is an entry in a database you cannot audit, and "processing time" is whatever the operator decides that week.

FeatureUKGC-licensed casinoOffshore no KYC casino
ID at signupRequired (electronic or upload)None
Minimum age18 (UK)18 stated, unverified
Slot stake cap£5 (18–24), £15 (25+)None
Withdrawal timeOften under 24h, e-wallets 1–4hMinutes to indefinite
Fund protectionSegregated accountsNone guaranteed
Dispute routeADR / Gambling CommissionNone
Self-exclusionGAMSTOP (mandatory)Operator-only, if at all
Tax on winningsNone (UK betting duty on operator)None, but no HMRC reporting
Contribution to GamCareStatutory levyZero

One more restriction worth naming. UK-licensed operators must run affordability checks: from 2025, a light check at £150 net monthly loss and a full financial risk assessment at £500. Offshore rooms do not, which is why problem gamblers sometimes migrate to them. That is the honest downside of the no KYC model, and it deserves saying plainly rather than buried in a footnote.

Is a no KYC casino the same as a crypto casino?

Not identical, but the overlap is around 90%. Nearly all genuine no-verification rooms settle in Bitcoin, Ethereum, USDT or similar, because crypto wallets provide pseudo-anonymity the operator can lean on for compliance theatre. A few accept cards and still skip documents, but those tend to be short-lived operations with thin licensing.

Can I use GAMSTOP at an offshore casino?

No. GAMSTOP is a UK-wide self-exclusion register covering every Gambling Commission-licensed operator, and offshore rooms sit outside it. If you self-exclude through GAMSTOP and then open an account at a Curaçao-licensed site, nothing blocks you. Some offshore operators offer their own exclusion tools, but you have to find them and trust them.

What happens if an offshore casino refuses to pay?

Realistically, very little. You have no ADR route, no regulator to escalate to, and no UK court jurisdiction worth pursuing for a few hundred pounds. Your options are public complaints on forums, Trustpilot reviews and a chargeback if you paid by card — which is precisely why crypto-only rooms are the worst position to be in when a payout stalls.

Top No KYC and Low-Friction Casinos Compared

The list below mixes genuinely offshore no-verification crypto rooms with UK-licensed brands that clear most customers electronically and only ask for documents at withdrawal. Both categories appear because "no KYC" in practice means "no documents unless something triggers a check". Read the licence column before anything else.

CasinoLicenceKYC approachTypical payout speedStandout detail
Bet365 casinoUKGCElectronic, docs at withdrawal1–24hLargest game library of any UK brand
William Hill casinoUKGCElectronic first2–24hLong-running live dealer hub
LeoVegas casinoUKGCElectronic, fast clears1–4h e-walletMobile-first interface, NetEnt heavy
888 CasinoUKGCElectronic1–24hOwn proprietary slots alongside Pragmatic
Betfair casinoUKGCElectronic1–12hExchange heritage, strong live casino
Paddy Power casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hFrequent free-spin offers
Sky Vegas casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hHeavy TV-linked promotions
Ladbrokes casinoUKGCElectronic2–24hHigh-street brand, solid live tables
MrQ casinoUKGCElectronic, no bonus wagering1–6hWager-free spins model
PlayOJO casinoUKGCElectronic1–8hNo wagering on any promotion
Casumo casinoUKGCElectronic1–12hGamified progression system
Unibet casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hKindred group, strong responsible-gambling tools
32Red casinoUKGCElectronic1–12hMicrogaming-heavy library
Grosvenor CasinosUKGCElectronic2–24hLive dealer streamed from real UK venues
BetMGM casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hMGM-backed, expanding UK library
BoyleSports casinoUKGCElectronic2–24hIrish heritage, competitive odds
Virgin Games casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hGamesys platform
BetVictor casinoUKGCElectronic1–12hStrong live roulette selection
Betway casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hSponsorship-driven brand recognition
NetBet casinoUKGCElectronic2–24hWide provider mix
Pub CasinoUKGCElectronic1–12hSmaller library, quick verification
Kwiff casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hSurprise odds mechanic on sports
VideoslotsUKGC + MaltaElectronic1–6hBattle of Slots tournaments
Mr Vegas casinoUKGC + MaltaElectronic1–8hLarge slot catalogue, Hacksaw titles
Casino KingsUKGCElectronic1–12hUK-focused, no-frills layout
All British CasinoUKGC + MaltaElectronic1–12hBritish theme, transparent terms
Mr.Play casinoUKGC + MaltaElectronic1–12hStrong live casino section
Dream VegasUKGC + MaltaElectronic1–12hWhite Hat Gaming platform
Bwin casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hEntain group, sports-led
10bet casinoUKGCElectronic2–24hCompact game selection
QuinnBet casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hIndependent UK operator
Lottomart casinoUKGC + MaltaElectronic1–12hLottery-style games alongside slots
Bet UK casinoUKGCElectronic1–12hLeoVegas group platform
Midnite casinoUKGCElectronic1–12hSimplified interface
LiveScore BetUKGCElectronic1–24hSports data integration
talkSPORT BETUKGCElectronic1–24hMedia brand tie-in
BetGoodwin casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hHorse racing heritage
Sportingbet casinoUKGCElectronic2–24hEntain-owned
Tote casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hPool betting background
Lottoland casinoUKGC + GibraltarElectronic1–24hLottery betting specialist
LottoGo casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hLottery and slots hybrid
Gala BingoUKGCElectronic1–24hBingo-first, slots attached
Foxy BingoUKGCElectronic1–24hBingo community rooms
JackpotJoy casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hBingo and instant wins
Sun BingoUKGCElectronic1–24hNews UK brand
Heart BingoUKGCElectronic1–24hGlobal Radio tie-in
Rainbow Riches CasinoUKGCElectronic1–12hSingle-franchise slot focus
Double Bubble BingoUKGCElectronic1–24hBingo plus classic slots
Slingo casinoUKGCElectronic1–24hSlingo and bingo mix
Amazon SlotsUKGCElectronic1–24hSlots-only lobby
Fabulous BingoUKGCElectronic1–24hBingo rooms with chat hosts
Magic Red casinoUKGC + MaltaElectronic1–12hCompact, curated library
Genting CasinoUKGCElectronic2–24hReal-world casino group
Monopoly CasinoUKGCElectronic1–24hBranded Monopoly titles
Pub CasinoUKGCElectronic1–12hLow minimum deposits
Goldenbet casinoCuraçaoNone at signupMinutes to hours (crypto)Offshore, crypto-first
Mystake casinoCuraçaoNone at signupMinutes to hours (crypto)Offshore, large bonus menu
NineWin casinoCuraçaoNoneCrypto, variableOffshore, slots-heavy
Roobet casinoCuraçaoNoneMinutes (crypto)Offshore, provably-fair games
Gamdom casinoCuraçaoNoneMinutes (crypto)Offshore, crypto-native
RainbetCuraçaoNoneMinutes (crypto)Offshore, sports and casino
Velobet casinoAnjouanNoneCrypto, variableOffshore, newer operation
Donbet casinoAnjouanNoneCrypto, variableOffshore, bonus-led
7bet. casinoCuraçaoNoneCrypto, variableOffshore, mixed library

Notice the pattern. The regulated names cluster at 1–24 hour payouts with electronic verification. The offshore names cluster at "minutes to variable" with no verification at all. Payout speed is the honest differentiator, and the crypto rooms genuinely win on raw speed when they pay — the risk is the "when they pay" qualifier.

Which no KYC casino pays out fastest?

Among crypto-native rooms, payouts of under 10 minutes are common because blockchain settlement is near-instant once approved. Among UK-licensed brands, e-wallet withdrawals at LeoVegas, MrQ, PlayOJO and Videoslots typically land within 1–6 hours. Traditional bank transfers at any UK operator take 1–3 working days regardless of licence.

Do UK casinos ever skip verification entirely?

No. Every Gambling Commission licensee verifies identity at some point, and the 2019 rule change moved that point to before deposit or gambling for most customers. What varies is how many customers clear electronically. Brands with strong credit-reference integration clear around 70–80% without a document upload, which is why some players never see a KYC request in years of play.

Are offshore casinos safe if they have a Curaçao licence?

Curaçao licensing is real but light. It requires a registered entity, a fee and basic operational standards, but it does not mandate segregated player funds, does not enforce RTP disclosure and does not provide an ADR route for UK players. Anjouan and Costa Rica licences are weaker still. Treat any offshore licence as a signal of existence, not of protection.

How to Choose Between Regulated and No KYC

The decision comes down to what you value more: speed and privacy, or recourse and transparency. There is no universal right answer, and anyone telling you otherwise is selling something. What follows is the practical decision framework, plus the specifics that actually move the needle.

Start with stake size. If you are spinning £0.20 a go with a £50 monthly budget, the RTP gap between a 96% and a 91% build costs you pennies, and the anonymity is worth more than the protection. If you are staking £2–£5 a spin with a £2,000 bankroll, the same gap costs hundreds a year, and you want the audited top-RTP build plus a regulator you can call.

Then look at withdrawal frequency. Players who cash out weekly feel every delay. Players who withdraw twice a year barely notice a 24-hour processing window. The no KYC advantage is concentrated in the frequent-withdrawal, crypto-native crowd.

One more consideration that rarely gets mentioned: tax. UK gambling winnings are not taxed for the player, and that applies whether you win at a regulated or offshore site. But offshore crypto winnings can create capital gains exposure if the value appreciates between receipt and disposal, and there is no operator reporting to HMRC to keep your records straight. That is a genuine, if niche, cost of going offshore.

Is it worth using a no KYC casino for small stakes?

For £20–£100 monthly budgets, the practical difference is small. You lose regulatory protection and gain privacy, and the RTP gap costs you maybe £2–£5 a year at those stakes. If anonymity matters to you, the trade is defensible. If it does not, a UK-licensed brand with electronic verification gives you the same low-friction experience with a safety net.

How do I check a casino's RTP before playing?

Open any slot and tap the info or "i" icon. The paytable screen lists the RTP as a percentage, usually at the bottom. If it says 96.21%, you are on the top build. If it says 94.25% or lower, the operator has selected a cheaper configuration. Live dealer games show RTP in the game rules panel instead.

What is the minimum age for online casinos in the UK?

18. That applies to every UKGC-licensed operator, and age verification is mandatory before you can deposit or gamble. Offshore rooms state 18 as well, but without verification the rule is nominal rather than enforced. If you are under 18, no casino on this page is legal for you to use, and that includes the crypto-only ones.

Responsible Gambling and the Limits Nobody Talks About

Gambling should cost you money you can afford to lose entirely, and no strategy changes the maths on that. Slots are negative expected value by design: a 96% RTP game loses you 4% of everything wagered over time, and no bankroll management system flips that. The only lever you control is how much you wager and how long you play.

In the UK the legal age is 18. The national gambling support helpline is operated by GamCare on 0808 8020 133, open 24 hours a day, seven days a week, free from UK landlines and mobiles. GamCare also runs a live chat and a forum. If gambling has stopped being entertainment, that number is the fastest route to a real conversation with someone trained for it.

Self-exclusion is the strongest tool available, and it has two layers. GAMSTOP is the free UK-wide register that blocks you from every Gambling Commission-licensed operator for a minimum of six months, extendable at your request. Sign up at gamstop.co.uk. Separately, every UKGC operator offers its own account-level exclusion, deposit limits, session timers and reality checks, all of which you can set yourself and which cannot be raised on request without a cooling-off period.

Offshore rooms sit outside GAMSTOP entirely. If you have self-excluded and then open an account at a Curaçao-licensed site, nothing stops you, and that is the single most important limitation to understand before choosing an unregulated platform. Some offshore operators offer voluntary exclusion tools, but they are not standardised, not audited and not portable between sites.

What is GAMSTOP and how does it work?

GAMSTOP is a free self-exclusion scheme covering every UK-licensed gambling operator. You register once, choose an exclusion period of at least six months, and every member operator blocks your accounts and marketing. It takes effect within 24 hours of registration. You cannot reverse it early, and it does not cover offshore or crypto casinos.

Where can UK players get gambling support?

GamCare runs the National Gambling Helpline on 0808 8020 133, free and available 24/7. They offer one-to-one counselling, group sessions and a moderated forum. GamCare also funds treatment through the NHS National Gambling Clinic network. For debt specifically, StepChange and National Debtline provide free, non-judgemental advice.

Can I set deposit limits at a no KYC casino?

Some offshore operators offer deposit limits, loss limits and session timers, but there is no requirement for them to do so and no regulator checking that the tools work. At a UKGC-licensed casino these tools are mandatory, must take effect immediately, and cannot be removed without a 24-hour cooling-off period. That difference matters more than most players realise.

Do no KYC casinos report winnings to HMRC?

No, and neither do UK-licensed casinos, because UK gambling winnings are not taxable for the player. The difference is record-keeping: UK operators hold audited transaction histories you can request, while offshore crypto rooms may hold nothing retrievable. If you need proof of funds for a mortgage or a tax query, that gap becomes a genuine problem.

Is a VPN needed to access no KYC casinos from the UK?

Sometimes, because some offshore rooms geo-block UK IP addresses to avoid Gambling Commission attention. Using a VPN to access from the UK is not itself illegal, though it breaches the terms of service of the site and the VPN provider. It also removes any remaining argument for recourse, since you have deliberately circumvented a geo-restriction. The Commission's position is that unlicensed operators should not transact with British customers at all.

What deposit methods work at no KYC casinos?

Crypto dominates: Bitcoin, Ethereum, USDT, Litecoin and Solana cover the bulk of traffic, with settlement typically confirmed in 10–60 minutes depending on network congestion and the fee you set. Some rooms also accept cards through third-party processors, but card payments create a paper trail that undermines the anonymity pitch and often trigger manual review anyway.

Do no KYC casinos offer welcome bonuses?

Nearly all of them do, and the terms are usually worse than UK equivalents. Wagering requirements of 40x to 60x are common offshore, against a UK market norm of 30x to 40x, and offshore terms frequently cap maximum win from a bonus at 5x to 10x the bonus value. Read the wagering clause before you claim anything.

The Verdict: Where the Numbers Land

Strip away the marketing and the no KYC proposition reduces to one question: what is privacy worth to you, in pounds? For a player staking £0.50 a spin with a £200 annual budget, the RTP gap between a top and bottom build costs roughly £8 a year, and the loss of regulatory recourse is theoretical because the amounts involved are small. The trade is rational.

Scale it up and the arithmetic flips. At £2 a spin, 200 spins per session, twice a week, you wager around £41,600 a year. A 3% RTP disadvantage costs £1,248 annually in extra expected loss. Add the tail risk of a withheld withdrawal, which at an unregulated room is a genuine possibility rather than a hypothetical, and the offshore route starts looking expensive for anyone playing seriously.

There is a middle path that gets overlooked. UK-licensed operators with strong electronic verification clear most customers without a single document upload, pay out in under 24 hours, and run audited top-RTP builds. LeoVegas, MrQ, PlayOJO, Videoslots and Casumo all sit in that bracket. You get the low-friction experience without surrendering the safety net, and you keep GAMSTOP coverage in place.

Choose offshore if you are crypto-native, play small, value anonymity above all else, and accept that a stalled payout is a cost of doing business. Choose regulated if you stake meaningfully, withdraw regularly, or want a regulator to escalate to when something goes wrong. Both are defensible. Only one has a complaints procedure.

Which is better for high-stakes players?

Regulated, on the numbers. The RTP gap alone costs a £2-per-spin player over £1,200 a year in expected value, which dwarfs any benefit from skipping a document upload. Add segregated funds, ADR access and audited payout terms, and the UKGC route wins clearly once stake size rises above roughly £1 per spin.

What is the single biggest risk of no KYC casinos?

Withheld withdrawals with no recourse. When an offshore room decides your account is under review, you have no regulator, no ADR provider and no practical legal route for a claim of a few hundred pounds. The money is simply gone until they choose otherwise, and some never do. Everything else is secondary to that.

Can I play at a no KYC casino and still self-exclude?

You can register with GAMSTOP, and it will block every UK-licensed operator for a minimum of six months. It will not block offshore rooms. If self-exclusion is part of your plan, staying within the regulated market is the only way to make it effective, because the register has no jurisdiction outside Gambling Commission licensees.

Do no KYC casinos use provably fair technology?

Some crypto-native rooms do, publishing seed hashes so players can verify that each result was not altered after the bet. Roobet, Gamdom and a handful of others run this model. It is a genuine transparency feature, though it verifies fairness of the random number generation rather than the RTP configuration, which remains operator-selected and usually undisclosed.

How long does UK casino verification actually take?

Electronic checks through credit reference agencies typically clear in seconds to a few minutes during the signup flow. Manual document review, when required, takes anywhere from 2 hours to 48 hours depending on the operator and the time of day. The common complaint about "days of waiting" usually traces to a failed electronic match, not to the process itself.

One final point on the maths. Every game on every platform, licensed or not, carries a negative expected value for the player. The house edge is the product, not a flaw in it. What you are choosing between is a smaller edge with a safety net, or a larger edge with anonymity. Neither turns gambling into an investment, and treating it as one is the fastest way to lose more than you intended.

If you are going to play, play with money you would not miss, set a limit before you start rather than after, and use the tools the regulated market gives you for free. The National Gambling Helpline on 0808 8020 133 is open around the clock, and GAMSTOP at gamstop.co.uk takes about five minutes to set up. Both are worth knowing about before you need them, not after.